What We Have Learned from Atomico's State Of European Tech Survey

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A Joint Audio-Only Podcast

This is the first joint radio program and podcast of IBGR and the Startuprad.io podcast with its radio program Startup.Radio. You may know that IBGR and Startup.Radio is a syndication partner, almost from the start of Startup.Radio. I, therefore, welcome William Eastman, founder of the IBGR Network, everybody calls Bill.

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What we have learned

Today we bring you insights from Atomico’s State of European Tech 2021 - an annual survey of startups all over Europe taking place annually since 2015. This survey may be the most comprehensive, repeated overview of the European startup and tech scene. This survey is a joint endeavor by Atomico, a London-based VC and PE fund, as well as the annual Slush tech festival in Helsinki, Finland. And, guys, you know a tech festival has to be good, if it can lure people to the freezing cold Helsinki in December. They also add data from providers like S&P and Dealroom in the mix. Startuprad.io had Dealrooms Founder in an interview btw.

This is just a start

This is just a starting point for you to discover the whole report on your own. It spans more than 350 pages, so we can not give you all the information here. The bottom line is … I would say: The whole continental ecosystem all over Europe has been lacking behind the US and China for quite some time. It looks like they have started to catch up in a big way, despite corona. We see this in increases in the number of investors, startups, fundings (number and size), and the increase in the uni/decacorn herds. The authors see a potential for the whole ecosystem that is now worth 3 Trillion US$ to be worth 24 Trillion US$ in 2030.

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Hello and welcome everybody. This is the first joint radio program and PODCAST OF IBGR and the start up bread too podcast with its radio station, startup dot radio. You may know, IBTR and start up dot radio are syndication partners almost from the start of startup dot radio. Therefore, welcome William Eastman, founder of the IBGR network that everybody calls bill hey hiding. I'm doing great to appreciate that and, by the way, for the US, I've been trying to call them your and Buddy's going. It's Joe. So I that's an easy one for an America. Yes, Joe, yeah. So I greatly enjoy our partnership because we overlapp and we do some things that are the same but approach it differently, and there's many things that we each do individually and it's collectively that it's a it's a powerful one to punch terms of you want news about startups, whether it's Ti Tech, Europe based or you're looking more global, and one of the trends. We have it here exactly this time we get together to discuss what I may call a monster. It's from the VC firm, a chmy core, and they call it the state of European Tech. It's an annual survey of startups all over Europe taking place annually since twenty fifteen. The survey maybe the most comprehensive, repeated over a few other European start up and texting there is, and this survey is a joint endeavor by Atomico, a London based VC and Pe Fund, as well as the annual slush tech festival in hells and key, and guys at Tech Festival has to be good if it can do people to freezing called hells and key in early December. They also add data from providers like ASMP and deal room into the mix. By the way, it start a break that. I Oh had the deal room founder in an interview and you know what's interesting? He worked in New York City and was an m a investment banker in limit brothers when they broke down and he has been one of the many people you saw him carry out his belongings after they broke down and shut down. Wow, I do remember those days. I wasn't in New York, but boy that was pretty ugly. MMM MMM, Bill, we will be just starting here. It's a few discussion points. I was looking through and they're more than three hundred and fifty pages in this report, so we cannot cover everything and everybody will have different highlights. But bottom line is we give you some hints whether's in there. We linked the show notes in podcast here in the episodes and you can get all the information from there. I would say the whole continental ecosystem all over Europe has been lacking behind the as in China for...

...quite some time. It looks like they have started a catch up in a big way despite corona. We see this in increases in number of investors, startups, fundings, number and size and the increase in the unique corn and they cut coin hurts for everybody who's not familiar with the terms. Unicorn is a privately held company that is valued at investing. So that means a VC has to evaluate a company and say, for example, this company is worth one million. You ASS dollar and if I want to buy twenty percent of the equity, I have to spend two hundred million. And the same holds true for a daycat con, but they are valued at ten building U as dollars and plus. The authors of the survey see a potential for the whole ecosystem that is now worth three trilling, yes, trilling with a Tu as dollars, and it could be worth up to twenty four trilling you as dollars. Yes, again trilling with the tea, in twenty thirty. I found this pretty impressing. What do you think? Oh, that is incredibly impressive, because when you consider that as of right now, if we take two, three trillion and the US dollars, the world economy is approximately seventy trillion GDP. And so in twenty thirty, I don't know what the estimate of the world's economy is going to be. Able to look at what percentage is going to be. It's going to go from, you know, three divided into seventy and to twenty four, may be divided at the eighty, and so it's a huge, huge increase here, and I think what that is saying is that the estimates are is that businesses that existed or doing business as we used to do business is done with. Is that there's going to be a revolution in business and your companies like Mercedes Benz are still going to be here, maybe an IBM, but for the most part almost all the all players are gone. And who are the replacements? Exactly. It's something we have seen here, just picking one popular example, and twenty six. They are what they call a new bank. They basically provide all the banking services. You only can call them and you can use the services on your computer, but it's mostly designed for an APP and they are half a higher valuation than Germany second largest listing bank, called comats bunk, the huge, and the things that I know from US banking is, though, that we're not obligated to follow basil rules. And now you've got Basil for that there or Basil for the be implemented by two thousand and twenty three. Those standards that the EU is setting are now becoming global, staying art we may take a deed to hear. Everybody who's is a frequent listener to my episodes know that I am the Lord of Detour, so to say. And basically, do you know why it's called Basil, Basil rules? So I don't. The...

BI as, the Bank for International Settlement, is actually located in Basil, and this is something like the Central Bank of the central banks. It was originally built to handle the war repayments from Germany after the first World War, but developed into something like the central meeting and gathering place for all the central banks. That's why it's called the Basil rules, and basically what they are doing is they give the bank rules on how much equity has to be behind every credit, and when they started out it was eight percent, but sometimes it can go up to twenty, thirty, fifty percent, and if you see the interest rates banks have to pay on that the dividends expected by investors, you can pretty fast see that not all the loans they can hand out are really economically viable, and that something there. The business owners, to small business owners, also the big business honors without access to capital markets will feel a big impact there. So basically that are the rules and as always when you have like European or global rules, that they'll be some twists on them in in local regulation. It's just sorry I may get a little bit too deep into that, but basically I've been working there in this field and basically it makes already a big difference when, for example, the German regulator issues a different circle of for like handling the nitty gritty details on the BAS rus. Then, for example, the French regulator or the Luxembourg regulator, and that makes small but noticeable differences. They're I know we're going to get into the one of the growth areas, and you is Infanta, and I really gotta think that it's part of this relationship. Maybe what we've seen so far is that a lot of the craters and brokers following what you know in the US as Robin Hood, the Robin Hood Model, basically your traits are for free, or almost for free, but the company that is doing it, they call it a new broker, is getting paid to root the deal flow towards certain venues, and that's basically how they are financing themselves. It's actually so attractive that the unique contry trade republic with coined on the base of that in Austria and Vienna. There's also a company in new broker, bit panda. They also became Unicorn, but they're, as you can already guess, a little bit more into cryptocurrencies. And and twenty six also wants to start all of that. Just received funding something around nine hundred millions, you...

...as dollars, in one funding around plus they made a second closing, but they did not disclose the money. Their phrase there, and there's of course, also scale, the capital in Munich. They've been originally Robert Wiser, but move more and more into this neo broker business wall as well, and that's what we've seen a big growth. But it may be under threat, because my understanding is that you as regulators, as well as European regulators, are working on either limiting or completely limiting the option to pay for all the flow. So their business model maybe under threat. We blocked about that. But let us get a little bit back into a Tommy Co we already took to detours talking about top five half. So the places should be known to you. Of course, London. I do believe in the US you read a lot about London and London startups. Berlin, Yes, you do. Stockholm, not so much, but you may know spotify. Munich is an important place as home of Germany's only Deca Corn Slonis and, of course, Paris, but there's already change on the horizon. And also Vienna, takes one of the top twenty spots in this survey. Would also found interesting is that more than one hundred building you as dollars, have been invested in a single year. For the first time, they basically make the survey based on the year ending end of September. So it's likely that it could have even been more than one hundred twenty billing you as do, lay in total. But the head of the German Startup Association laments that. The investment gains their accumulated outside of your a lot of international investors are really big in creating coining those UNICORNS. Who Comes to mind, instance, and from China, Softbank from Japan, or a tiger global and other players that are usually the lead investors when a company becomes a Unicorn. Yeah, and you know, I know we're going to talk about just a little bit. It's not part of the study, but the amount of money that's going into India and Africa, especially from Fintech, is enormous and I think one of the conversations I'd like to have with you for our whisteners is there seems to be an upcoming battle between government money the in private money, which is really one of the basis behind crypto. MMM. So in Germany, I can tell you they're trying to assist or kickstart private money with public money. For example, Europe's most active seat investor is a German government owned entity, quite high tech. Couldn't have FON HTTF and I had the very interesting CEO of this entity there. And basically what they're doing they raise their funds. Fifty percent are coming from...

...public purses and fifty percent from private companies, and there's everything in it that has a household name. You talked about it, Bush, seemen's Deutsche Bahn and so on and so fourth. So basically that's what they're trying right now. What are you referring to what I've been saying? It's that there was a bit of a sizable investment going into Nigeria and into Kenya, and one of the underlying stories behind that is that seventy percent of Africa does not bank. Only thirty percent of the people in Africa have bank accounts, and there's a multiple reasons. One of the reasons is the banks are very difficult to do business with, even if you put money in your ability to get loans, etc. But a lot of people are engaged in strictly peer to peer transactions and the beauty of Crypto, blockchain and that whole fintech arena is that. Now, if I'm a doing in business in Nairobi and I'm doing business and I will be okay, I can use money, but if I'm doing business same wagos from Nairobi, how do I do that? And so the hot bed right now is can you and Nigeria to a lesser degree, Egypt in South Africa all getting involved in Crypto so that Africa can do business with each other? And you know crypto is going to be private money. So a Nigerian government just responded by trying to outlaw crypto. So we'll see where it's going. But I think a lot of governments are going to be threatened by the fact that you're in you and I you, or Joe, you and I you. We can do business with our own currencies and they don't know what we're doing. And so I one of the reasons I had seen a lot of startups coming in Deutch win was around how to help crypto companies meet banking regulations, which I thought was very interesting. I actually had a very interesting conversation with an interview guest on that just recently. How we talked a lot about the digital your and stable coins, and I exactly know how you feel, but especially like international transfers. It's very, very compasome, time intensive and it frequently happens that something goes wrong and then you have to look for you money. So I totally understand that. It's makes it easier. Basically, you know how money's transferred. So you have correspondent banks and basically they keep accounts and they send each other money back and forth, saying this is the company, this is for this client, this is for this client, this is for that client, where they use swift, which is only a messaging service built in Belgium, and basically they send you a message, this money will be coming, but most banks they'll just wait until the money's there, until they paid out. So no speed gains there. Yeah, and it's you. That's one of the reasons that the Central American country, El Salvador, is going to Bitcoin is the alternative currency, because there's a lot of els, of Dorians who work in the United States who are remitting their salaries back to their families and El Salvador, and about ten fifteen...

...percent of that money is being lost in transaction cost. Now we're going with bitcoin because the El Salvadoran government's going that's money we could have as opposed to give it a to western union or swift or sort of verification service. So I haven't read a story on the battle between government money and private money, but almost every one of these stories you could see it below the surface if you're read between the lines, and so it's going to prove to be interesting. My guess is the people who want to be the government's that want to turn their currency into Crypto, the European models the one they're going to follow. There's not a lot I have to add there, so I would just go back to my prepared talking points, and what I want to say is that even Christ Emilia, yes, from the company that makes also for the family that also owns the company that makes a household appliance us. He said most investment gains are accumulated outside of your but only with international investors you can have those like effects of tripling the invested money in a single year. Would have had in mind were companies where international investors played a big role. Klana, spotify and twenty six Selonis, not so much bio on check, but they are very special case here. They are the company behind the visor vaccine and they have been a smashing success to a degree that their growth made all of Germany d GDP grow by sero point five percent more than without them. Well, it's considerable. Oh yeah, and what is also interesting they are based not too far away from Frankfurt, in my native city in minds, where I was born and the city. Of course, they have been like a place where they always had to look for the money, but now they are flooded with attacks money from biown Chech and I think a hundred hundred fifty million was their annual budget usually, and now they've been flooded with for one year with seven hundred million additional income, and so they first want to pay down that. I think they'll achieve this pretty soon, and then they want to make the city very attractive for biotech, met check and startups related to this and become a global hup there. That would be an interesting story. I have an interview request out with those people talking to somebody in charge what they are planning. That would be a very interesting conversation. Yeah, because I'm I'm sure we'll be carrying a story on Ibgr as well. Yes, of course, of course. Oh, my thing the stringman brothers. They are very much not in the public light. There are the only twin selfmade billionaires in the world and they're they're very much shying away from the spotlight, but they have been extremely important and making by on tech a success. At the point of the IPO they more owned more than fifty percent, and we...

...have a profile all of those twins on our website, of course, link in the show notes. But usually the VINTAG investment has led the charge, rising by one hundred fifty nine percent, with the total of investment of nearly fifteen billion. As I said, what comes to mind other new broker straight to republic and twenty six, scalable capital and so forth. Good news for the startups. Investors raised record capital, so there is a large competition for the best dealers. At Tommy COO expects to see more international capital flows, even increasing the competition. In Two thousand and twenty two also would have found interesting. One in three private tech companies are fintech companies, including four into ten tech companies in Europe with the highest valuation. And in two thousand and twenty one is the year of the mega rounds, with over one hundred fifty investment rounds where they invested more than one hundred million, you as dollars, and actually I have to tell you that that is something that really wowed meet for the very simple reason that they used to be really big investments when I started out as a startup podcaster, and they've been like three five million, and now we have this months of funding, for example with Trade Republic, with and twenty six hundreds of millions. That's totally another level there. Yeah, and it's if you haven't been watching the we're venture capital is going, you just don't understand how big FINTECH is. Financial Technology, which is covers a lot of areas. The biggest one, and one of the reasons that a lot of banks are jumping on us, is that most of all of their labor costs are and transaction monitoring, and so we're Fintech, blockchain. They're going to be reducing their labor caused by the considerable amount. So these these investments, in their mind, are going to produce a great returns for the banking institutions. We may give the audience a little bit background there, because when you talking about basically they have to check all the regulations, meeting money laundry, politically expose people, PEPs and Bargos and all that stuff, which is not an evy thing. I once read the Economist and they said just a family name of Mubara can be spelt in forty different ways. So they have an engine where all the transactions run through and then they have like a whole floor of analysts that have to deal with everything that comes out there and and flag it or say no, it's okay. So that's what William is referring to, including like the increasing rules on almost everything. Embargo here, embargo DA, money, laundry, politically exposed people. It's a lot to do and actually I don't envy the people that have to do that every day. So, yeah, I go to either. Yeah, the physical location at Tommy, because says is also increasingly losing its importance, maybe for...

...outlets like us that try to give you a complete overview, but it's still important. Who, you know would have found really interesting. There was even a really good piece by CB insides the research house. Two Thousand and twenty one son Ninety eight new UNICORNS and twenty six new day cut corns. The BTB UNICORNS take over BTC UNICORNS. Before that it was what you've know this in the US for example, hello fresh, a rocket Internet copycat of Blue Apron, for example. It's just one example of the early BTC successes here. But now BTB is really taken on speed here and we just talked about the three trilling you as dollars for the whole ecosystem, and that is up from just one trillion in two thousand and eighteen. So it has tripled in something like three years. It's really incredible how this is going. The investments talking about two thousand and twenty two could also triple from one hundred two three hundred billion you as dollars. And the Investment Growth Two thousand and twenty one, who's largely triggered by bigger rounds, and they are talking about investment runs of two hundred and fifty million plus, which crew by a factor of ten in the last twelve months, and they know represent footy percent of the total capital invested in Europe. That is good on the one side, but actually I also feel it's bad on the other side because that means there's a lot of vent to capital but it only goes to a few companies and if companies like Uber have proven something, it is that if you're successful in raising venture capital, it doesn't necessarily mean that you can build a successful long term business model. Right. Well, that is so correct. In fact, I think a lot of people. You know, when you hit me with the mean idea eight new UNICORNS. That's an incredible number. And you're a startup business, where a startup business, of my fifth start up, the idea that you can grow a company to a billion dollars and not be publicly traded is almost unfathomable. I mean the difficulty of doing that and the fact that that money is out there. I would say to any business owner out there if you have an idea that can attract venture capital the next year or so is to put time to get in it. The money's going to be there because it's now hunting for opportunities. In the past, startups were looking for venture capital and it was kind of like it was the venture capital market. You know, you come to me and I'll decide whether you've got this is worth investing in. Now what we're saying is the venture capital or running around the world going hey, I have some money, do you have an idea? I wish they would not get on my door. Well, we're going to take care of that in two thousand and twenty two. I take your...

...word for it. What comes to mind are some of the quick delivery startups here in Germany. In some cases they did not need nine months from getting really stunted with the business until becoming a Unicorn. That is some of them. Joker for example, I have from the top of my mind I think they needed something like seven month to become a Unicorn. I would have to look up the numbers exactly, but it was well below a year and so believable. Yeah, the just unbelievable. After building five companies, that's unbelievable. Getting a little bit back to the survey, in Germany alone had thirty seven funding runs of more than one hundred million you as dollars. The UK Sixty Eight, France twenty three bill did you notice something? Italy is missing, Spain is missing, Portugal is missing. So they're still a lot of potential here. And Never Forget Eastern European countries, Poland, Slovenia, Slovakia, Romania. They also have a lot of very, very smart people. The largest four runs rate. Would definitely think the check republic should be a dominant player in here because of the intellectual capital, the country house. Oh Yeah, they have a lot of very smart people there and I do believe in a few years we will talk about them. Out of the top ten largest grounds they found, four of them are from Germany. Slowness, the process mining company. That is the only deca corn gorillas, ten minute delivery, and twenty sixth in the new bank and Trade to republic, the new broker. Also from the twenty largest exits they found, four of them came from Germany, including auto one, which at the IPO coined the first new tech billionaires in Germany for, I do believe, twenty or more years. And fortunately they have not their share price has not been doing great, but that is something we have seen in other companies as well. There were times when Amazon and twitter and Facebook, we're not very popular on the capital markets. We talked in now our news about the buyout of souplus. As you can already guess, it's an online shop for pet supplies and it was board out. There was really a bidding war between three different private I could companies. Lilium found a new home and NASTAC. They are looking at a flying taxis flying caps with a spack deal and hanceelt would taken over an IT company and in total they found exits worth of two hundred seventy five billion. Yes, again with the B you as dollars. That's a lot of money to be reinvested in startups. There's a lot of money be really universted in store ups. Talking about reinvestments, a Tommy car also states that Europe now has a start up pipeline equal to ds, even though we're not there in terms...

...of funding and the US has only two percent lead in global capital invested over Europe. And they even say that early stage funding in Europe is improving at the expense of the US. Yeah, to the comet. I would add to that because I take that as a correct statement. But it's also is that we we've been throwing money around in the United States and I think what's happened is that the quality of the startups I have decreased. You know, is the analogy I used before, is that they're used to be you went to them and they would decide whether they were going to do business with you. Now they're coming to you, and so the European mark at the African market, the Indian market. I'm going to stay out of China because I don't have to be honest, I don't pay a lot of attention to China because I don't think the future of the world's economy is in China because of all of their systemic issues. Eyeing India is the play, but that's just kind of my opinion. But I think what's happening here is that now Europe is enjoying the heyday because American businesses venture capital was looking for great deals and Europe has got a lot of them. I think in the US we've kind of exploited most of the really good deals, the ones that make sense. And this got back to my comment before about the cryptocurrency and Blockchain, is that if you think the future is going to be in government cryptocurrency, government digital currency, then European in startups is the place to invest because they're going to play by those rules because you have them. On the other hand, if your bed is oh no, we're going to go is going to be the wild wild west, your money is going to Nairobi or Lagos. I was actually talking to Philip Tanna on this issue and we've been talking about that. There is a lot of stable, so to say, relatively speaking, a lot of stable coins in you as dollars, and there is not a lot in yours, and that's all due to the negative interest rate. Because when you are you as dollar stable coin, basically you put the money in the count and it would generate interest. If you're European, you stable coin company that provides stable euro as Crypto, basically you will lose money just by having the money in the bank account. Yes, and I think that this is what we tell our listeners, to the people that we're getting there who are thinking about getting into cryptose separate transactions from investments. Is that how to invest? If in cryptose your investment, I don't have any advice. What I don't want to do that because I'll wind up in jail. But number two, I don't have the expertise. But the answer is going to be if you can't take crypto and a transaction, then you're basically going to lose ten to fifteen percent of your sales in two thousand and twenty two and going forward, because more and more of the world's going to do business there. So I always thought that the issue was more of around Basil and the banking regulations in Europe to get that right, because it's far more complicated as United...

States has. It's not as complicated as the EU marketers. So I've always thought that that was the reason that was kind of lagging. That's why I was paying attention. I wish I had written them down. One of them, I believe it's a Unicorn Down German company that all it's doing is providing blockchain technology so that you can comply with all the law and have crypto that European based. Wouldn't know from the top off my mind what company or describing, but I'm sure they're they're more than one around happening with that. Yeah, I think I can't remember. It was about a month ago and for everybody that's listening, we both both of our networks do news and I look at general trending news and I came across the story about three weeks ago and I wish I wrote down the name. I think they're actually supported out of England. I think they're getting Monday money from London and not from inside the EU. So I also thought that was curious and that's not too uncommon. We talked about one of the investment companies that is backing a lot of Fintax in Germany and actually, it turned out of one of the most important investors in those funts is Michael Bloomberg. Yeah, well, you know, he's not one of my favorite people, but he's got a watch because he definitely understands what's going on around the world, because he's got this mega organization, he's got plenty of researchers. If they're paying attention to something, pay attention to it. He may be the best informed person in the world. I would I would not bet against that. I mean, what are they? They are a market and financial research company, period. Their news function is they're selling the data that they collect exactly. Plus they also have some options for trading within their terminals. So they also have market places where they can see the generation of prices in real time, the forming of prices, Yep, well, and also, I'm sure that what they're doing is are also tracking all the major players, so they know, they know the transactions that are coming at also, they can do forensic accounting in terms of they can go backwards, go if burker Hathaway, for examples, moving this direction into a market. They can work backwards to go here are the reasons why they're doing it. So they don't have to be privy to the research that Berkshire did, but they can go okay, this is got to be the reason behind it. This whole thing about building data management platforms and ai machine learning as a whole different topic we ought to do some time. Yes, actually, great words. I am already done with my highlight from the Tomic cousseevey. As I said, more than three hundred and fifty pages we link to down here in the show notes through this motster off a report. Plus I've also seen a venture capital survey by the European Investment Fund, which I will also link down here. That is the main investment entity, that is the...

LP, meaning the invest of Many v see funds, and the link was straight open up PDF. And I think I'll also share the article about Michael Bloomberg and this twinman brothers here in the show notes. Bill. When they're listening to Ibtr, where can they find them? What the show notes? Yes, we have a page dedicated the show notes. We have over twenty five hundred pages of show notes. You go to the website I beg R donetwork, you'll find four tabs on the navigation Bor mouse over resources, you'll see show notes. Click it and in. Once you're there, there's a search bar. Put in the terms that you'd like to look for, and the difference between us and searching on Google is that we don't have any click bait. It's all information from multiple sources, like Joe, like myself, like his team, my team, and we all have different perspectives on the data. So you'll get multiple opinions on the same topic. Yes, exactly, and I think it's pretty safe when you either put in a Tommy Cost Survey all Europeene Investment Fund that you'll find our show notes here right, and in fact I'll put the survey in there, but that was something I'll do today. Yeah, and for everybody WHO's listening to this, unstart up dot radio, go to DUB DUB DUP, start up rate DOT IO, and they're just look for a Tommy Cust savey block post. And my concluding thought here is this, is that if you want the best our business news, that you can get better than Bloomberg, Better Than Wall Street Journal, Better Than Financial Times. You catch thirty minutes from start up radio or start up read dot ioh and then at the bottom of the hour, thirty minutes or might be Gr Dot News, and you'll have the best our business news every day exactly. There's nothing more I have to add here. So thank you very much, Bill. It was a pleasure talking to you and hopefully we can repeat this pretty soon. I'm looking forward to it again. I greatly appreciate you as going us to be on and I love these opportunities for us to work together and put her together, because we have very different perspectives and it's interesting. I love hearing your shows, because I listened to all of your new shows. I listened to because I'm on after you and I'm going, what is he covering that I don't have to cover? Yes, thank you very much. I also try my best to listen to all of your news and, of course, to IBTR and start up dot radio, especially since I knew have a lot of podcasters on my radio station that I don't know yet so well. So basically, I also listened to it in order to discover something new. Okay, well, thank you, my friend. Thank you, guys. Have a good day and tune in again in the next collaboration between start up dot radio and the ibjr network have a great business day.

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