Billie brings - Buy Now Pay Later (BNPL) - to the B2B Market


"Klana is all built beautifully around the consumer. … but many merchants also want a B2B checkout and here Klana decided to partner with the leading provider in the space []."Matthias Knecht, Co-Founder

The Founder

“I was raised in Germany, with a stint at Columbia University before moving to McKinsey. After working for them,” says Matthias (https://de-DE_.linkedincom/in/-matthiasknecht), “I left and started Zencap.” This company was eventually acquired by Funding Circle where he spent only one year of his time there; then on into Billie — together with cofounder Christian.

"Hiring is currently one of our main challenges. Our doors are wide open."Matthias Knecht, Co-Founder

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The Startup

Billie’s business is disrupting the B2B market by allowing consumers to buy now and pay later. Their investors include Klana — one of Europe’s largest Buy Now Pay Later (BNPL) companies for this sector with over 50 million clients across 500+ brands worldwide!The company also integrates seamlessly into Klana’s systems so that all client transactions can be done through Billie's platform while still enjoying advanced features such as payment encryption and loan pre-payment options which not only make financial services more accessible but give buyers peace of mind when making large purchases or taking out short term loans.





Venture Capital Funding

Billie is one of the most successful startups in Germany and they have raised more than 140 m US$ from investors like Creadum, Global Founders Fund (Rocket Internet), Dawn Capital, Speedinvest, Klana, Tencent, and Picus Capital. It sounds like Billie may become soon a unicorn with all these hints being dropped about their future success.

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Welcome to start up brand that I own, your podcast and Youtube blog covering the German startup scene with News, interviews and live events. Hey guys, hello and welcome everybody. This is Joe from start a Bright Daro bringing you today another entrepreneur interview. This time is, so to say, the second part of an interview, because Matthias is here. My guests, but actually I have been interviewing in German back in two thousand and fifteen, he is now, and then co founder Christian, when they have been starting the company send Cap. But before we get into all the stories of SANDCAP, billy and so on, I would like to welcome Matts Kneesh, cofounder of Billy, here in my podcast. Welcome I joe. Thanks for having me. Totally my pleasure. We may say that billy is a Fintech head quartet in Berlin and you are officially the CO founder of the company. What, what is your actual role, or do you wear like a trillion heads, Joe Gush? I think as a CO founder, and I would call myself coucio as well, you're indeed wearing a trillion hands. I think, now that we are a bit larger, with a like hundred fifty people. We can already delegate some of the heads to some of our senior management team, but indeed, as a founder, I think you always responsible for at least half the company. So the heads keep on sticking to my head. I see I have. I have been following you a little bit on Linkedin and I can tell you have originally a background in engineering, also with us, some twists towards finance, economics and capital markets, and then you did a Ph d with a stint at Columbia University. So tell us how is New York? Where was your most loved breakfast nook and, of course, what did you write about? That's right, Joe. I indeed studied at the Castle Institute of Technology and I did my master's in engineering and management. That's what it's called. So there it's a highly technical and mathematical university. So half of the studies were in engineering subjects, electrical engineering, mechanic engineering, these kind of things. The other half was in finance and economics. So bringing both together was incredibly exciting for me. That's why why I chose this, this course of study, and indeed, after finishing university, I then started out with mckinzie and during these mckinzie years I took two years off to do my PhD in learnberk in Germany, but then also half of the time at Columbia New York, and that was a very special time in my life, you know, like being a researcher, PhD student, taking part at PhD courses, also Mba Courses Columbia, and then just experiencing the city. It was like in two thousand, I guess it was two thousand and ten eleven when it was New York. Yeah, I'm at my favorite breakfast place. That is a very special, nice little place. It's called Clinton Street Baking Company. I hope it's still existing. I haven't been for a long time. It's in lower east side. I'm with an amazing pancake breakfast. So whenever in you're in New York, you should try to check it out. But you also need to bring a lot of time. Usually the the cues in front of this place are you like forty five minutes to an hour at...

...just to get in to get your pancakes. Well, I checked while you've been talking and a Google says they are still in business. Absolutely, I assume, since you did such a lot of management, like mathematical trivil plus engineering. You mass skills have to be pretty good. Well, I mean that's I think that's a given in this kind of course of study. Yes, week you you need to go through it. It was a very, very, very painful experience, to be honest, like working through it, but at the end I believe it paid off. And then later on, even though I didn't know exactly why I was going through this at the time at university, later on working in mckinzie or now here, at my at my second startup. I think this kind of very structured way of thinking and instructuring problems. I think that had a lot a little later on, even though I probably couldn't solve the equations that I did back in the days nowadays. I think that's that a time that has passed. I would be wondering what did you write about in your peahd thesis? What was it about, like numbers theory, or did you write something about something a non mathematician could understand? Oh, you can actually google it. I think it's still on Amazon. So it's about industry diversification. So how large conglomerates diversify across different industries and how dynam how the dynamism of markets is affecting the success of diverse effect on conglomer so, you know, I was thinking about like, if you are a highly diversified company with different business units in different markets, are you affected by the dynamism, the cycles of the different market types that you're in? I think one example back in the days was Zeemen's, our very large German company. They on the ones I produce power plants and turbines. Then they also produce our, I see, our bullet trains here in Germany, but then they also produced mobile phones. So very different markets with very different market dynamics and cycles. And how does this all fit together under one roof? I think this was like the court of thesis. And afterwards you joined mckinzie again, but then you left to found send cap. Can you tell us a little bit about what decision went into founding send cap and looking back now, would you consider you send cap a success or failure? Yeah, the decision that's went into founding my first company was, I think, a very simple one. You know, being a consultant was was a great experience. I worked for McKinsey for five and a half years and I was working for very different German companies, usually banks or other financialst to insurance players, private equity companies, but also common factors and others, and that was a great experience because you got exposed to very exciting and complicated problems. You're working with an exciting mckinse team, but also on the clients I was very, very interesting people at the same time, after a while I had the feeling that I was working on solutions and designing and producing concepts which we hope makes sense, but then at the same time we were never really responsible for putting them into practice. Right. So you were like design these amazing concept together with the client. Had A lot of fun doing so, but then when these concepts got implemented, and you'll hopefully would at some point see the outcomes of it, as a consultant, usually leave the company. So you were never on the playing field, but usually standing on the sidelines and coaching and trying to coach. And there was something that I said after w look, I want to get onto the playing field. I really want to be responsible for the success or for the failures of my own decisions, and that...

...was when I think it grew within me to say, look, I want to like found or leave my own company. And these were other days when finntack became a word. Like it was like mid and and late in two thousand and thirteen, early two thousand and fourteen when we found the company. That was a time when some of the fintake, the early fintach models, came from the US to content of Europe and we became aware of this, these amazing things that you could do with financial technology, and I think there was this kind of you know, the kind of many things coming together, on one side the technology area, founding a company, but in also the financial area which I was working on for Mckinsey, and all together made up the the perfect time for me. I remember this time, and actually in two thousand and fourteen I did the first annual fintach review, which is still around today and is still published. On the twenty five of December in the morning, I'm can you tell us a little bit about the story of Sandcap, what you guys did and how you ended up exiting? Yeah, sure, you know. I think like end of two hundred and thirteen, biginn of tow and fourteen. This was the time when we've seen in other countries, like especially us, will also a little bit the UK, that some of the first business malls of banks got disrupted by Finntick, the payment players like papal and also clown I have already been found and we're working on consumer payments. But then came up lending models. We had lending club in the US, we have funding circle in the UK concentrating on business loans, but we had no real innovation here in content of Europe. So we said, look, why don't we like try to work out how digital ending can also be implemented here and hopefully change the landscape here and contract Europe? And these were the times when we then we're working on these solutions, on these ideas, and we teamed up with investors here in Germany, amongst them rocket Internet and only samber, and said look, why don't we bring this year to Europe? I mean we have a very old school banking markets. Back in the days we had like one thousand and three, one thousand four hundred different banks in Germany, but none of them really was focused on using like new technologies to disrupt up into the landscape and Orso to bring a more innovative and streamlined product to the market. So that's what we set out to do and we focused on a specific type of lending. We focused on small business lending, so lending especially to these small and micro companies. beat a freelancer, soul trader or company with half a dozen or a dozen people who have probably a bit more difficulties getting a loan then mid to large sized corporates. So this was a segment where I set look here innovation can help in terms of more less fully automating the lending business and then also distributing loans to these small companies. And I think for me, you know, looking back at these different periods in my life, when I look back at the mckinsi experience, I think this was a time when I learned a lot with regards to the tool kit that I could apply later on, like disaggregating problems, working very analytically, and this also shaped, in a good way, or that way, my work ethics. But then again, at Zen kept, my first company, which I found it together with my also now co found or Christian Christian group. Here, I think we just learned how to build a company. You know, when we found in Zend CAP. We didn't have a clue, to be honest. We didn't know how it worked. We didn't know how to say we didn't I didn't even know what a CT always or how product management works. We didn't know how to set up a finance department. I couldn't differentiate sales from marketing. So there was these very fundamental things...

...that, like, in hindsight, I really didn't have a clue world. So this were this was a very steep learning curve at the very beginning and we probably yeah, we've done so many things wrong which, however, now benefits us by you know, second company. You eventually sold the company to funding circle based in the UK. Do you considered this successful exit looking back now? Oh, this for us was was a tremendous success and and we didn't e plan for selling our company that earlier. Right, we sold them kept within the first two years of founding it, and this was a never planned like that. We were building the company, we were present in three countries, Germany, Spain, ather lands, and had offices in all these countries, in Berlin, Madrid and Amsterdam. But then, you know, I was at one of these conference. I remember like it was yesterday when I was in New York at at a hotel closer time square and at a so called lended conference and all these like new fintech founders and Celso meeting there, and then, like the finding back then, the finding circle, Foundenco came up to me and say hey, but he is like, why do we have a coffee? Let's talk and we had a very good discussion about how Lenny would evolve, how Europe and all the US should I need to change this regard. And then we started discussing why don't we build like a dominant player together and why don't we combine these two companies? Finding Circle, back in the days was present in the UK and also in the US. They acquired a company there to enter the US market. So they had these two markets and we were present in our three European geographies and we are the fastest growing player here. So combining these two entities from a strategic perspective made a lot of sense. So that was, I think, the trigger point to then enter in such an MA process and at the end of it we indeed sold the company to funding circle. We became part of the Funny Circle Management Team and take the rest is history. M Hmm. But nonetheless, you then left the company and I would be cures how you found the idea for billy. So at Billy we talked about basically, I'm a small merchant. I do have accounts receivable worth let's say hundred years, to make it easy, and you pay nine and ninety seven point five for it, but I have the cash. Now that's basically the idea of factoring. How did you start with this idea? I mean it in case, in terms of topics getting liquidity to companies, you've been sticking with the same topic. But how did he come up with this idea? Was It us something you wish you had when you been an entrepreneur? Yeah, absolutely. You know, we am doing the time and funding circle and Zen CAPP. We had so many ideas coming our way and most of them came from our customers asking us, hey, could you please help me with this or that problem? And many of these customers came to US asking us for certain types of liquidity solutions. And back in the days we had installment loans as a product. We could do six month loans or one, two or three, four five year loans, but we couldn't really have customers who said, look, we I want to pay my employees by any of the month, I want to stock up my warehouse for the Christmas Sale. Like these kind of short term liquidity working capital management problems we really didn't have an appropriate product for. We only had installment loans, which is a good product in itself, but it doesn't solve all the problems of these companies. So here it was cleated. There was a niche in the market. And next to this, other companies also asked us if we can help them with their BGB payments. They are paying out to their suppliers, they receive payments from their customer and there was a...

...lot of friction in these processes, since the bedb payment processes in itself we're not smooth, not a line, not digitized back in these days. So I think bringing these two together made a lot of sense. So we decided to then thought or own company to tackle that some of the challenges, and the first challenge we wanted to tackle was indeed working capital management for these small and micro companies, and that is basically the idea on which billy was built. But it's not the only product you doing right now, but before we get into that, just a little bit of the frame, because we were listened to across the world and which companies would be eligible for getting this factoring service, this fast liquidity selling account receivable to you. Yeah, I mean in terms of eligibility, we try to open it up for literally all the smas out there. So small and medium sized enterprises our customers. Back then we had an average like five to ten million annual revenue. Could be as small as a freelancer, but also could be as large as company with fifty people and have a million revenue. So there was like there's like our target segment. Most of the companies came to us because, of course they want work keptal financing, but also because of the ease of the process. We try to do the the customer on boarding fully automatically, the invoice approvals, the risk assessment, all these kind of core capabilities that we built back in the days. We try to build on a fully automated basis and we learned a lot of funding circles and cap we also learned a lot how not to build things. So the second time around we said look, the data infrastructure, the risk systems, the refinancing, the collection processes. All these things need to be as automated as possible right from the start, right. We didn't want to build old school banking processes which we then would need to digitize later on, but we literally wanted to start in a fully automated way. That's how we built the company. But then, as you already indicated, we also like released other products that I think at least as exciting as the first one. and talking about this because you are doing something Europe Unicorn called Clana does. This is by now paid later, but in the bet be environment. And first thought was, HM, that maybe a competitor of Klana, even though you're not in the same market. And then I was going on crunch pace and checking you out and Klan has actually one of your investors. So at first I want to know how did you come up with the idea? And secondly, was their first plan as investor? Or first the product offering? Is that Al Right? And trush Bas okay, I need to check this out. That that's indeed right. So Clara participated with a small ticket in our last funding round, which we raised last year in twenty twenty one, and of Twenty and twenty one. So Klan has now indeed a small shareholder of billy and, as you said, we are now concentrating our efforts on by now, pay later for B tob customers. And how it came to this was also three. I was quite simple. You know, we had many customers back in the day is coming to us and say, look, you are helping these small Medi says companies with financing their accounts receiver, which is an amazing technology. Could you please also do this for me? I'm selling my goods not online, but not offline, but online. So I'm a be to be online shop. Could you please do mod the same thing for me? And there it's not just about liquidity. It's also about fully automated, UX optimized checkout experience, about the whole accounts receiver management, the payment reconciliation, the incoming payments need to be matched to the open invoices, but then also about services which you can offer to the buyers... such a checkout out. Come to that maybe a little later. So we were basically driven by customer demand and then said, look, we have all of the technology already. Why don't we just, like, plug it into a online checkout and then create literally the first full fledge be to be by now paid a product. So that was the beginning of a very exciting journey for us and coming out of such an idea. It was at the beginning more as an rd leap, but we just tested out things and tried out things. But then we have seen, look, the market amount is so massive for this product. Let's really turn it into our main product. Let's give it a nice and shine use interface and start working it distributing it to a lot of customers. Okay, so the idea was first and then I didn't answer your question. I would be curious because basically you told me the product was first. But then I would be curious. Did you find Klana in a normal pitch or did they realize you do something similar and they reached out to you? Yeah, Oh, you know, the startup scene finta see is so small that most people know each other. So it wasn't like any formal picture. So we know Plana for for more than two years by now and you know some of the sea level of clanna. We Know Sebastian, the founder, also personally. So there was already quite a connection going on and you know, I think also Klanna realized over time that they are like the champion in BC by now play, that they have a massive proposition. They happen incredibly smooth product, they have a nice Klanna have. They have more than a hundred million customers, like consumers on the KLANNA appsot. It's an amazing ecosystem that they've built and they're offering a lot more than just by an now, pay later. They have become by now and ECOMMERCE shopping platform for consumers, also offering credit card, a fullfledge bank account and many more things. So Klonna is centered around the consumer as a value propersys as the core user, and this is, I think, what they are what they want to build on. They have lady Gaga and snoop dog as there as their brand ambassadors and have this crazy, super nice pink branding. So it's all around the consumer. At the same time, I think what Klanna recognizes that if you have a merchant that you're serving with your payment method, the merchants might have a B Toc check out, but they might also have a B to be check out, and if you're only serving one side of the coin, for many merchants is not enough. They also want their be to be their business teke out to be served. And here I think Klanna decided not to try to build an own product. Actually they actually try to build it in Sweden and other countries, but I think for them it was not the right focus. So they said look, that's partner with the leading provider in this space and just integrate them into the planet Klana Platform. And that's exactly what we did right. We were in long discussion with Klanna, we showed our product back and forth and then we both decided that that's a great partnership. So by now, just beginning of the year, we've finished our integration with Klana. So now Klan our customers to the online shops that use Klana. They can use billy as a pain method through the Standing Klana integration. So there's no separate neegration prod which can just go live and serve the business check out of each Klana merchant. Right and I think by doing so we have removed one of the major hurdles of implementing a new payment method, that is, the technical or integration, the effort to really launch such a payment method in your checkout. That's all gone. So these klana merchants can now use the BEDB payments quite effectively, and I would be curious how you do the risk management for you said, because by now pay later...

...includes a risk, of course, for you as well as for the clients. How you're dealing here with the risk management, and is it also like a very smooth automatic process, or do you still need a lot of risk analysts there? Yeah, Oh Joey, I could talk for hours about this is this is probably one of other we got time. Try to be as specific as I can. This is a one of the core, I think, Ip intellected property areas in a company like ours to to do the risk management right in such a product, and this can make up break your company. Right if you do this right, you can be very profitable. You keep Defaultaglo, you keep check out conversion rates and end to end acceptance rates very high. At the same time, if you mess it up, look at this is a big balance at risk because then these kind of receivals, some transaction, they're just blowing up in your face because you are taking over the risk of these transactions as such a provider. So risk management is at the heart of what we're doing and we have a data science team of nearly two dozen people who's doing nothing else and then developing these kind of machine learning models that I'm managing the risk of re buying. So I would actually even go a little bit further. Risk Management is one part of the checkout experience and, to answer one of your questions, yes, it needs to be instant. There is no human manual decision being taken. All of the decisions in the checkout are taken by our different models, and risk management is one part of it. You have another part, which is identification. So identifying your counterparty in the checkout is it sounds simple, but it's for me to be actually quite challenging. And third it is also you have limit systems, like how much limit, how much exposure can you accumulate against the counterparty in the check out? So can you do how did your or a thousand, your Fiftyzero, hundred, thousand years? So what is the exposure you're willing to accept against your counterparty? And these three systems, identification, risk management and the limit system stay, need to play together and all of them then define your and to end acceptance rate, which for us is one of the core Kpis that we are trying to optimize for. So, coming to your question of risk management, there are at least two major types of risk. One is credit risk, the other one is fraud risk, and fraud risk mostly comes from identity theft or other ways that you have like a like a buyer that is trying to fraud you, like this kind of let's think about the black hat bias. It just really want to get the products and run away. So managing credit risk and fraudusk are key. Both of them require different data points in different ways of assessing it. And if you're looking at all introductions as as we do, fraud risk is usually the major risk category, not for all sectors, but for most sectors. If you think about that, we are serving electronics merchants or other merchions who have highly value goods that you can easily be resolved. Here, of course you have a high risk that these transactions can be fraudulent. So your fraud wants need to be quite strong. So how you do this, and I can just expense on a high level, is you're using external data providers, you using intern data, you're looking at the transaction type, you're looking at the at the flow of transaction. What is in the basket that is just being shot? Where does the thing come from? Which I which I P addresses it? Can or can you not use device at the fingerprinting? How frequently to these transactions come into your system from a certain buying entity? So there are many ways to look at this. Plus you're combining this usue with different types of external later sources to then define if, if not, you think this is a fraud, sir, and if I not, you think this credits can be accepted or should be rejected. And you know, combining this all needs to happen within two to three hundred milliseconds because for the buyer it needs to feed instant. So you cannot go back and say, Oh, I have my...

...analyst not looking at this. This all needs to be instant and this is how the systems need to be trained. That means you do pay a lot to club providers for a lot of computer resources at I would procurious if, if you can talk about this, what is the coolest product you are you are funding for merchants, for example, specialist equipment for haircuts, for docks for example. And secondly, what was the most outrageous fraud you can a fraud attempt you can remember. Wow, these are too too, too exciting questions. Let me answer the second one first. The mode of most outrageous fraud on this product we have, so this factoring product where you have different types of fraud, but on the by now, pay later, product. We once suffered a fraud attack from a number of fraudsters who seem to have launched a coordinated fraud attack against our systems, against some of the many shops we are integrated with. They for somehow they have figured out where billy is managing the checkout and then probably try to attack all of these checkouts at once. At least that's what it looked like. They are all came from certain geographical region in Germany. It was a city of Hamburg, like we had like many attacks from Hamburg in a certain given period of time. And these frauds try to buy high value goods and, while the merchants were shipping the goods, to try to change delivery addresses to some other addresses or to some puck shots you own, not to the other like receptive areas where you can easily get the package and then run away with that without necessarily needing to identify you right. So I think this is one prouductempt where people try to re rute packages to other errors and just grab them run away, and we have spotted it, luckily, quite quite early on. Then identify the forces and shut down the front of him. But this you can see this as a little spike in our default, all default curve. That that the thought that happened and for us I think it's it's not so much critical that these product times happened. You'll always have them. It's always a cat and mouse problem, right, that prout us try to be smarter than you, then you catch up and then other fraud patterns emerge. The important thing is that you are, on the one side, fast enough to recognize the fraut teens, but second also have certain limit systems or other checks in play so that if something like this hits you, Hi doesn't completely destroy your company. Right. You should never be exposed to certain fat finger risks where suddenly you have like a couple of Zeros more in terms of fraud than you you you have. This is something that that may not happen to your company and I think that the most exciting fraud product you know there was one year. I probably can tell this one story and there's one company that we serve or one version that we serve that's told us. Look, we have one fraud pattern that we know of but for some reason become prevent there's this one fraudster who is continuously stealing from us, but he always puts a package of cookies into his basket. So for whatever reason, I don't know why, this frauds puts the package of cookies in his basket and then tries to so it would be actually pretty simple to spot this foster. Whatever this packet of cookie is, someone's passenger probably rejected transaction but for some reason the merchant wasn't able to do it because it didn't have the systems to go through basket case. Then we check on a certain like line, item, order base and a certain transactor, which something of course we can do, but the merchant could. They just don't have the infrastructure. So this was, I think, a funny thing spotting a Fraudso by their preference for certain type of cookie. That sounds pretty good. We have been digging quite a lot to deep into billy, and...

I would have now a few questions. Looking more a little bit at the future, of course. Right now, the important question many people asking is, are you guys currently hiring when you have such a lot of high end computer equipment and stuff to do? Oh yeah, we are. We have completely open doors. Right hiring is literally one of our major challenges to get top talent on board as quickly as we can. We are hiring across all the levels, from ski level down to analyst and also working students. So the doors are very wide open, especially for all talent or literally across departments, from engineering to product even to a finance, marketing, sales operations, like literally across all the different departments we have, doors are wide open. We are sitting in Bellinza, billins, or headquarter. We have started, like as probably many companies day during the COVID pandemic, to start also hiring remotely just to get access to watch Helen, and we can also employ people fully remote. So here I think the the opportunities are unlimited. Believes at a very, very exciting stage of it's of its company life. So everybody who wants to join us is highly welcome to just sent sent the CD over. MMMM. Also talk about your funding. You have pretty populished pretty well published. Series B and seriousc already under your belt. And I'm just looking through the investors here. Kandom, biggest capital, a, tense end Klanna, as we already said, speed invest global founders fund. So pretty interesting investors. You raised product a little bit over I would say one hundred thirty million duers as of today, because I can't get the data for you. Serious A or seat investment. So that is very likely. And the question with a such funding numbers is always when will you be a Unicorn? That's right. So there's planning numbers you mentioned are are directly correct, and also the investors are are correct. Were missing one of them. The last round was led by dawn capital, so dawn is like one of our latest investors on the block here, together as tense and of Klanner. They they made up this the fantastic round. And you know, Joe, I'm indeed. I'm not chasing valuations. It's it's probably weird to hear that, but variations is just one of the outcomes of the work we do. So for me it's very important that the company is always well capitalized. I really I cannot stand the feeling of running against the wall. So that's what we capitalistic company in such a tremendous way. We have all the capital in the world to invest now into the product, into our people and into internationalizing the company. I think this is what you'll see next. So in terms of the use of funds, we are fully focused in Germany, where the market leading player be to be Ben Open latter in Germany and will, I think, add to this over the course of the next one and two years. So you'll see a lot from us here in this market. But then, since the customer demands are ubiquitous across Europe, so you'll see these be tob demands for such a payment solution everywhere. That's why we'll bring the solution into more countries, together with our partner Clana, but also together with the other partners. So I think this is where we are investing behind. Usually, as you know, with other startups, launching new country is unprofitable. So you'll really like me to invest in the country. You'll probably open office, you hire the people to invest in sales marketing into the country, but then over time these countries will dig themselves out and become contributors to the overall company. So I think this is where how the funds will be used, and you know, I don't want to like go into depth of predicting when and how unicon status will be reached. For me, this is literally an outcome of the work we do. You see last year, I guess you've seen very high...

...valuations in a startup sector, coming from presead seed a to pree IPOW, even the appeals we've seen, I think we're were tremendously expensiveness. Put like this, and what you're seeing already this year at this valuations have come down. It started with the pre IPO, the late stage guy, then came over to growth notes, to sious be a and all seed preseats. So you'll see. I think we see in precede are still very expensive, but I trusted to also see valuations coming down a little bit over there. So the macro environment, the public markets value, since they are trickling down also the venture capital chain down to the precept companies. By saying so, what I'm saying is I think it'll be it'll be probably a little bit more difficult for most companies to raise right now and to achieve these sky high valuations that we've seen last year. However, I also consider this to be a bit more of a healthy environment right having seen companies with, I don't know, more than a hundred EGS random multiples, is just like it's probably an unhealthy kind of valuation exper like expectation. So this has come down. I'm not saying that will never get up to these kind of levels of valuation again, just because there's so much liquid it in the market that also needs to search for an exit somehow. However, I think in the next twelve to eighty month you'll see somewhat depressed valuations to probably more it's a bit of a mean reversion right there, probably a little bit more towards a long term me than what you've seen last year autumn. Line is UNICO valuation is not totally impossible for you and we will see it sometime down the road. This is what I've taken from you. And would you be nonetheless open to talk to international investors if they see this interview and are interested in Billy? Oh Yeah, you know, we never stop talking to two potension investors. I mean we are, were incredibly bell capitalized at the moment. So I'll run rate is like, I don't know, you like it's like a couple of years. To be honest, we keep on burning like we do at the moment. At the same time, we are very opportunistic, like we have continuously talking to investors. Investors understand us. We have a lot of inbound demands. I'm am not talking to all of them, but especially the ones that I find interesting or we have already pre existing relationships. So this is something that's going on and we will fundraise when we think the time is right. That can be very soon, that can be a little later in the process, I think. Again, since we are well capitalized, we have all the time in the world, so I'm not rushed by anything. At the same time, the best fundraise always happened when you don't need the money right. So that's why we keep our eyes open, we keep on executing, we really heads down, trying to out execute anybody else in the market, and then at some point there will be a right time and then we are very open to accept new France. Yes, great, and only thing left for me to ask you. Everybody who would be interested in a job up, can you give them a url where they can find out more, in case they're just listening to this on on any Internet radio station and don't have any ul or something at hand. Oh yeah, absolutely. I think you should just Google Billy Dot ioh and then jobs and then you'll find out job page. It's very prominent and you can just apply there right so I think it's also the job at you find the current openings. We try to update them as frequently as we can. Sometimes they more jobs open they we could put on the website just because it's changing so rapidly. So if you are working or if you're interested in all these areas, especially engineering, product data science, even operations, states, marketing and other functions, just look at the website or contact us directly by sending your linked in profile or r CV to us, I think. But definitely okay it. And you're open to remote jobs as well. And for everybody WHO's watching this or listening to this on... of our channels, go down here in the show notes. There will be a link to the website of billy and all the other information. But, Tias, I have been bothering you with questions for more than forty minutes now, which is a little bit unusual on the longer side of the interviews. Nonetheless, I enjoyed it a lot because I'm also a fantic Geek, and thank you. Thank you very much for all the time and hope to have you back in sometime, maybe when your Unicorn was great chatting to our thanks a lot for having me with all my pleasure. Thanks, bye bye. That's all. Folks find more news streams, events and interviews at www dot's start up bread Dohyo. Remember Shery is caring.

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