Meet Finoa, They Want to Build a Crypto Bank


When I started in crypto, I had to manage so many wallets and platforms, that I could not imagine how complicated it would be for an institutional investor. We started FINOA to help with that.

Henrik Gebbing, Co-Founder and Co-CEO of FINOA 

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We want to be the No 1 crypto custodian for institutional investors in Europe. Henrik Gebbing, Co-Founder and Co-CEO of FINOA 

The Founder

In this interview we speak to Henrik Gebbing (, the Co-CEO and Co-Founder of Finoa, a Berlin-based crypto fintech, which is already one of the hidden champions. They are a global top 5 crypto custodian for institutional investors. Henrik attended Golden Gate University in San Francisco as a Fulbright Scholar and got his MBA at IE Business School in Madrid. He later worked as a consultant with McKinsey, but after 4 years jumped ship to start Finoa. He developed the idea, that would later become Finoa with his roommate (and now co-founder) on the kitchen table in Madrid while studying for his MBA.

Globally we want to maintain one of the top 5 spots for crypto custody. Henrik Gebbing, Co-Founder and Co-CEO of FINOA 

The Startup

The co-founders started Finoa ( in Berlin. Their driving idea was – and still is – to support institutional investors to go into crypto. They also support wealthy individuals, who hold substantial amounts of crypto assets of more than 100.000US$. Finoa is a custodian, meaning they keep - on behalf of their clients - their crypto assets save. At the time of the interview, they have around 400 customers. Their clients include the crypto holdings of Rocket Internet, T-Systems, US-based VCs, and hedge funds.

In April 2021 they announced a 22 mn US$ Series A funding, which is sizeable for Germany, as well as for crypto at the time.

We hold assets for entities in Asia and Silicon Valley, but our focus market is the European Union. Henrik Gebbing, Co-Founder and Co-CEO of FINOA 

Venture Capital Funding

FINOA announced their Series A funding of 22 mn US$ in April 2021(LINK). FINOA is open to discussions with investors, but they are not actively looking for new investors.

Fintech is fast, but crypto is warp-speed. Henrik Gebbing, Co-Founder and Co-CEO of FINOA

MMM wine. Now that I have your attention, I want to welcome you to our podcast and introduce you this episode of sponsor. Then no vest. You may know that I grew up on a Vinde yard, so I was very happy when when the West approached us with the corporation. They enable you to invest in fine why? You can do this to diversify your portfolio or simply to get to know great wines, since you can get your wine also delivered home to enjoy it, or you can do both. who learn more, use to link in the description below. Welcome to start up bread that I own your podcast and Youtube blog covering the German startup scene with News, interviews and live events. Hello and welcome everybody. This is Joe from celebrate that. I owe your start up podcast, and you do block from Germany, as well as the founder of the words first Internet radio station dedicated to startups and tech companies, start up dot radio. Today I like to welcome Henry Hey hiding. Hey Joe, I'm doing what? First of all, thanks for having me here. Very happy to be part of the PODCAST. Yeah, totally my pleasure. Let us tell our audience a little bit about you and then we can get into the interview and first of all that they may recognize the Pale gray background. You are calling in from a phone booth in Berlin, because your company is physically located in Berlin but officially headquartered in a little town out on the outskirts of Berlin called Potstam. And what do you guys doing with Pheoah, is you are in the pro serfs of building Germany's first cryptobank. Is that right? Well, yes, you can certainly call it a cryptobank. I mean in Crypto, the terminology bank is probably not always the most commonly used, but if you got's a compared to traditional use cases. Yes, we provide financial services for CRYPTO for institutional customer base, and that out of a regular, different environment. So yes, it's a cryptobank, focus on bhb clients. Don't worry, we're not necessarily a hundred percent crypto podcast here, so we can say the Crypto Bank and you will get eaten up for it. Would have found interesting going in a little bit in UCV. You've been actually full right scholar attending golden gate universities and, as the name already suggests, I do believe it's somewhere pretty close to the Golden Gate Bridge? Right, yes, it is. It was in the heart. It is in the heart of San Francisco and in downtown. It's pretty yeah, not known in Europe, I would say, but they have a great relationship with full bright. The scholarship that I was happy to receive. My dream was it to study in San Francisco, and then it was a two thousand and thirteen. I got the chance to my master's degree in downtown San Francisco. Definitely one of the best years in my career so far. Great, and you're also did an MB A. wouldn't found pretty interesting about you? You've been trainee at Siemens. Yet the big the big company that does almost everything, I would say. And then guy set. Was it actually like the handheld a phone devices there within a cements? That is true. That is true. They used to be a part of zemon still when I when I joined. So I applied for Zemons back in the day. In Germany it's kind of a common concept that you have sponsored bachelor degrees, so corporates pay for your for your for your studies. Basically, you give up a lot of freedom because you're not really have any student life...

...but at least you have a bit of money in the pocket. That's what I opted in for. And then what I was there, they say, sold that handheld devices or literally the the pre mobile phone kind of era, and they carved it out as Gigo set. And Anyway, what I learned doing that Mba a bachelor degree is that I wasn't really ready to work for a corporate player just yet. That's why I just had it off after after graduating, and then went to San Francisco to the continue my studies. Very nice. The two typical questions associated with San Francisco and maybe three. Did you did you visit the headquarter of one of the Popular Tech firms there? Did you see grate white and did he experience an earthquake? I think I can say I can say yes to more most of it. So the earthquake, I did actually feel very small, but for German standards that was already life changing event. I would almost say there's there's no such short, not really such thing in in Germany. And obviously I was falling in love with a tech see in there. Like I was going from from twitter to Google to Uber. I had friends working in the different in the different tech players, and in two thousand and thirteen most of them were not as big as they will. Google was, but but twitter over there, they were not, weren't as big as they are now. And I was really stoked. I was getting into interviews and was really thinking I'm going to stay in San Francisco, we're going to work and tech here. Then to figure that my full right scholarship, which I was so happy to have, wouldn't allow me to get a work these afterwards. They would send me at least two years back to my home country to bring the American culture back to the back to Germany, and then this plan to stay in San Francisco kind of collapsed and that's when I decided to go back to Germany. That sounds pretty promising. And then you ended up as a consultant with mckinson. You told in other German podcast you've been working a lot with a financial service institutions and then at one point, after almost after a little bit more than four years, you decide to jump ship and start start up. Can you take us through this journey here? Yeah, no, happy to. Yeah, so I started in Mckinsey, was it two thousand and fifteen, and well, still think it's a great it's a great school. Is a great place to learn very bright individuals, to work with very international as well. But I somehow knew from the beginning that I wouldn't want to, let's say, make partner in a consulting firm. I just had had different plants and I never really knew in the beginning you know what that was, if I just wanted to jump back into, let's say, the industry, to tech industry or whatsoever. However, I want to do something on my own. I always had this feeling that that could be something in entrepreneurship that really excites me and I luckily got the chance with McKinsey to do an MBA so I could kind of get out of the hamster wheel of consulting at a year in Beautiful Madrid and Spain to focus on what I want to do next while getting the MBA. And I was getting into Krypto just before I went into the NBA. So I started investing into bitcoin. That was two thousand and sixteen the first time and playing around with a technology. And then you the NBA. I was thinking, well, there's so much potential, the technology is so interesting, there's so much potential disruption in the financial industry. So, basically, for the clients that I was serving at mckinseiy as a consultant and then, together with my now cool founder, Chris, who I you for Mackensey and who also ended up doing is MBA in Madrid, and we ended up living in the same apartment and on our kitchen table we started ideating. Well, what's next, what's coming after the NBA? And that was basically the first brick that...

...we laid down by back in the day of what is now I for you know, our three years later. And how did you come up with this idea? I mean it's you incorporated some time in April, may two thousand and nineteen, and you then, in two thousand and twenty one, raised twenty two million in a series a, which already, for Germany, is quite big. How was you away from Oh, let's do something in Crypto to really raising big money? Well, yeah, that's actually a longer story, right. I mean, oh, we don't worry. Guys out there, if you're listening right now, get a snack. Price pause exactly, and we'll be back with you. I have a coffee, I'm getting started. So no, but I mean, as I said, we my microphone and I we were both getting into crypto. We were both ready to to jump ship from from consulting and we were really thinking, Kake, Crypto is so interesting, so much potential create technology, but what does it really take to become a mainstream market? And especially two thousand and seventeen when we started ideating, Crypto was very niche, it was very retail driven, it was a lot of providers which had arbitrary jurisdictions that they were operating in, so you would find companies in Malta, in Gibraltar, in the say, shells offshore and very little projects. At the end that we were based, for example, in the European Union or based in our home country, Germany, and we said, well, if we believe that this is really going to go mainstream, it needs also to have teams and companies based in those that say more let's a stable, more established also maybe, regulatorially, a bit more strict environments, even though Crypto wasn't regulated back in the day. But what we always thought is it's going to come like regulators are gonna put regulation under under supervision, and if they do that, we wanted we want to be part of it, because I think that was really what we believe the the the lever or the than the trigger for for global adoption and for really mainstream adoption. And out of the old experience that we had when we were investing into Crypto as a private individual, it just never failed really secure. It was always like some shady platforms that we were using. I needed to manage, remember, thirteen, fourteen different and exchanges, wallets, platforms to kind of build my own portfolio, and that was just me with a few hundred bucks. And then I was thinking, well, my clients and mckinzie, the institutional investors, etc. If they were to start investing in Crypto, they would have no partner to do that with. They just wouldn't have a regulated counterparty anywhere. That you wouldn't find anyone in the European Union and that wouldn't be that service that kind of combines their needs. And that's when we decided then to really build a service, financial service and the technology to serve institutional investors who want to go into crypto and help them grow their crypto portfolio. And three years fast forward, that exact that is exactly what we are where we are focusing on exactly what we are serving, and that gives you a bit of the background and the back story how we started and why we thought it was the right, let's say, target market to focus on. then. That I mean when you look a bit back in Crypto, and for those who are not in Crypto, you just look at the, let's a global market capitalization, you can see that end of two thousand and seventeen the market reached an all time high back in the day and then in two thousand and eighteen it really dropped and into the so called, or be called now, the crypto winter. And that was exactly the time when we thought about raising funds from venture capital and we had a really hard time convincing institution investors, that was two thousand eighteen, two thousand and nineteen, to to convince them to to invest into the crypto start up because, you know,...

...crypto was kind of seen as, as we are, not so much of a bus industry anymore, a bit cold and not not the really hot topic. And it took US almost a year to raise our seat funding round. And Anyway, we kept on building, we kept on believing that the market is going to come we build our product, and then what we saw in two thousand and twenty was that Crypto really started picking up again right the crypto winter was certainly over. We saw massive market entrance, new use cases and the oval market capitalization really increasing, and we were ready with a product we could start serving customers. And that then, basically, after a great year two thousand and twenty, lets to our series a funding round, which we then announced in que this year, where we were then lucky enough to for German standards, that's completely right, to raise quite a substantial series A. I mean by now series a funding runs become bigger and bigger in venture capital funding, but back in the day we were really stoked to be able to to raise this with PHENOA, with a team and the company, and that gives you know a bit of the story where we started and how we ended up with our series a fund. PRITS, HMM, talking a little bit about more Feoah. Here what I took from listen to some of the interviews you did there. First Point. You don't get twenty two million just for promises. I'm I heard in one of the interviews that you're already doing mildings in monthly revenues. Yeah, that's that's correct it and I heard that. Of course, you have the CRYPTO Holdings of institutional investor, so you're not dealing with private clients. Are Private individuals really able to get an account with you, or do you say are no way, we don't rule it out. So we do have private individuals who decide that fenor is the right the right product, the right service for them, which, as our product is actually focused on let's say larger holdings. Institutional investors are obviously then private individuals who hold a substantial amount of crypto assets and they come to us and work with us as well. It's not our target market, but we also don't don't turn them down. We do have a certain, let's a minimum threshold where we say hey, this is customers that we make sense with our service offering to help them grow and safe guard the Crypto but the actual target marketing market is really the institutionals. What what is the threshold you're talking about there? It's currently around a hundred thousand euros in crypto assets. Oh, it's not like in private thanking your welcome if you bring more than five million year, as though lies in investable assets. Okay, I see. No, not, not quite like that. You spilled a few names when you've been talking in another interview. At the time he said you had two hundred eighty customers. I think it's fair to assume that they're now over four hundred. Yeah, I think that's that's kind of the target range we are we are approaching now absolutely right, and I mean over the last year's especially with a with the institutional adoption that really picked up over the years twenty two, twenty one and twenty one, with a fantastic year in crypto in general. That obviously also played into into our use case, into our target market, where more and more institutionalis which are not only let's say, the crypto natives, but also coming from a more traditional background, starting to diversify their their investment portfolio with crypto with a certain location. M You also told in another...

...interview that you are that you're that you are holding the crypto assets of rocket Internet, for example. Any other famous clients you can talk about? I mean it's somehow you call a banking right, and in banking the banking secrecy client, client privilege. Now, but we have a few clients where we hopefully talk about. I mean another a, let's a more traditional from a traditional background, is tea systems. It's a subsidiary of Deutsche Telecom where where we have a great relationship with they build infrastructure in Crypto, they are paid by networks in Crypto and they need to hold their treasury in Crypto and that's what they what they do with us. And then, I mean we have a full range of customers across the globe, not very, let's say, only German focus. I mean German is clearly our home market, but we have very healthy, very healthy client base also in the US, with US venture capital funds that invest in Crypto, hetch funds that investor in Crypto and and I like to say we have clients from from San Francisco to Hong Kong, so basically across the globe, while obviously our target marketing market is Europe and the European Union. I see, I'm you said there you have many clients from abroad, including Asia and Silken Valley, and you also said it's fair to assume that you're one of the global top five players in crypto custody. I think that's with a focus on the institutional context. That's that's absolutely fair to say, and I mean what what we really want to be seen in our vision as well, is that we want to own the European content. Tried to it. We want to be the number one crypto player here, out of out of Europe when it comes to serving the institutionals going into crypto. So they should know way that should they shouldn't be a way around working with our platform when, when, when crypto comes on the agenda for institutionals and institutions corporates in general. And then, obviously you have the global context, as I said, with where we have a very healthy client base and a healthily growing client base internationally, and and that's where we definitely want to maintain or, let's say, top five positioning is you'd regulated under the German law as a socalled crypto custodian. We may take a step back for everybody WHO's not from financial services, because Todian used to be somebody with like a huge a big vault, like a huge door, and they kept the physical, the paper based securities, shares, bonds in there. But you're doing this for the clients. Basically, you keep a lot of different worlds. I would assume for different clients and they can press a button and then they exactly know how much is worth and how much crypto they have in their account with you. Yes, that's correct. So I mean it's not so easy to compare that the traditional custodians with the ones that that we're finding in in crypto. It's just it's a completely different text Dec so it's why the traditional world is still to some degree paper based, right, and it's still to some degree physical assets that are stored somewhere. It's obviously all digital in Crypto and some, let's say, roles in the traditional financial system which are somewhat separated. You have so called custodians and you have global custodience and you have central depositories. Without going too much into that detail, that is a bit more, let's say, within one player in Crypto, with the Cryptocasstodian in our case. But as you completely correctly say, is that our clients, they store their assets with us, we hold the wallet for them,...

...we maintain the entire security infrastructure around it, we maintain that it's a regulatory framework and compliance around it and if our customers want to want to see their assets, they lock into our our interface, and if they want to work with the assets, grow their assets, they can do that through our interface as well, and and that I get. I think gives you a bit of the background how the client product interaction looks like. HMM, talking about clients, is there really a me to movement? Did you see any effects when Teza, for example, said, okay, we are taking crypto and we are investing in Crypto? I would definitely say so. I mean the conversations that that kind of started to to come in, and also the the inbound leads with require with regard to treasury use cases. So that company said, okay, I have a certain liquidity on my balance sheet. I face more and more inflation, and I think that's even more true now than it was six months ago. I'm facing negative interest rates on substantial euro, Ordos Dollar Holdings. I want to diversify, I want to kind of hatch my portfolio, and I think crypto is a new asset class where I can do that with right so and I do very much believe that this, this kind of Tesla News, which just made it into any outlet that I can even think of, a thinking, made it even in the yellow press. Right. So it definitely held to to kind of give the market another push. But I think what's important to to note is that, yes, it's great that that Tesla kind of took this lead and you know, must that his did his fair share. They're also in promoting it. But important is we to see that there was, let's say, a broader wave, and that is still a broader wave, of adoption to Crypto as an as an asset class, as an alternative asset in the portfolio. And Yeah, that's that's really what also makes me very, very positive about the next years to come, because still the global institutional or the percentage of global institutionary wealth that is deployed in Crypto is still relatively low. Right. So the the the the potential that we still see, the opportunity that we still see and that would we also want to grow with as Phenoa, is still tremendous. We were just at the very, very beginning of of this kind of industry and of this movement, of this disruption in financial services, with crypto and and decentralized finance kind of as the bus words here, and we're very happy to be part of that that wave. HMM, you're talking about just the start. So there's always a big competition at the beginning and then you start to see at one point some winners. I do believe that there are other guys around. For example, we had interviews in the past with cash link. They now have applied for crypto custody license. There's conbays around, of course, the elephant in the room as well. After more traditional players, what comes to mind, for example, other global custodians like Bank of New York, melon or State Street. And most people will realize this, but if they do have a big put folio of equities, especially US based equities, there's high probability that they already have assets with companies like that because they they're so big. Do you see first a competition from traditional place and the see it getting fiercer in the future? Well, I mean in general it's not a blue ocean. Obviously, like we are not the only ones working working crypto, and I think I personally see that as a very healthy sign that, you know, the industry is maturing. The market becomes also more competitive. There's more products in the market, more services in the market, but at the same time what we see is, and some of the examples that you...

...named is that you also have to differentiate a bit the the products, the services, kind of the target market that the different players going after. Is it retail? Is it more the institutional anger? Is it actual crypto assets, so it's a decentralized for example, cryptocurrencies or utility tokens, or is it more tokenized traditional assets, you know, like basically traditional securities or debt, on new rails, on a new technology stack which, for example, casheling is very active in, which we also know very well here from the German ecosystem. So that is an important differentiation, of course, in terms of product offering, the traditional players in general, I mean I've been hearing that for as basically since we started, since two thousand and seventeen, I've been told, yeah, but well, do you guys actually have any legitimacy, because, you know, the traditional players we captured and I haven't seen that since right. So I'm not saying that traditional players were not play an important role as well and serve very important, I'd say, piece of the overall Pie, but I think also there we will see a bit of a new shift because if you mean you called the elephant in room, in the room but if you if you look at coin is, it's a beautiful example. Right. It's kind of also our North Star in our industry. I mean they with their IPO, they made it basically among the top five US financial service providers or US banks in terms of market capitalization. For example, if I put myself into at the position of a customer in the US of of coin base, and even if Bank of America would tomorrow come with a bitcoin wallet, I think there's very little reason to move from Coinbas to Bank of America, right because most definitely the service is going to be more expensive and I don't think that the product will be much better. Right. So that's exactly also why we, as Fenoor here in the European context, very much see our our our chance to really grow into this into this market, be become so big also as a service provider with such a large customer base and with such a large service offering that even if traditional players decide to go into the market, that we still have our fair share and fashore of the market and be the market leader and institutional context, and I think with great products, great technology and then having the same regulatory framework on top of that. So that's certainty also for the customer. Yes, that's also a fully regulated company, but it's completely native in Crypto to then be also convincing enough that that our customers would stick with us and would keep on coming and work with us. HMM. You talked about like Security Tokens, which we may add for everybody WHO's not a regular follow of this channel, is possible. In Germany there has been a new securities there has been an update in securities law and basically you can now issue is securities on Tokens and actually our interview guest bit bond, which we will link down here in the show notes, made the first security token offering. And if you like to learn more about the background of the securities token law, we have an interview with Professor Philip Santa Talking about the law before it even became a law. So with us, you guys are ahead of the curve. Talking little bit more about the future of you guys right now. What are your plans, because my understanding is it right now you want to be the leader in Europe. You're not only doing like the classical crypto assets. I think you could also store n FT's with you, like security tokens like utility tokens and crypto currency. So... there a broad range you can do? And what what's your final goal like? Number one globally, top five globally, number one in Europe, is what I've heard. I mean, that's it's a very good, good question. So I mean as of today, if you ask, probably in the market we are perceived as a cryptic assodium. Right, I think in a few years from now that we have changed a bit, you know, because we started obviously with custody as our as our core product, but we are now gradually expanding the product portfolio in aller we we started with a product which is very crypto, let's say native. It's called staking. It's basically in chance for investors to grow their assets, to create additional yield on their assets, and we are now further expanding into brokerage. And if you look at our road map, you will see that lending is a very interesting use case that we we see the future. Trading in general is a very interesting use case that we are working on and what we really see ourselves is really this. Yeah, I think one stop shop for institutionals where they find, when they want to go into crypto where they find out of a secure infrastructure. So this custody piece will always be, let's say, the foundation of our service, but it will then serve for different use cases in Crypto that you can access through our platform, and they should find their chance to grow their portfolio, to top up their portfolio, to also divest their portfolio, to create a yield in the in the decentralized environment and and all that. For All that, phnoa will be the interface to to the institutions, to the corporates who are looking for for their crypto play, and that's very much what we are currently focusing on, to grow the company into that direction, to move from a, let's a single or two product company company into a multiproduct company, and that's exactly what's what our rope met at the moment looks like. I see it sounded pretty much like there's right now a competition of new brokers going on that Wi track pretty close, especially now our new is a bit Unda and twenty six. Of course, coin base, but also scalable capital come to mind. But they're coming from a different angle, always into retail, and you trying to do the similar thing a little more for the institutional and the high net worth individual side, from my understanding. Yes, that's that's absolutely correct. So we really do not go into this in more retail and, let's say, low volume, low investment average landscape and actually focus on the on the on the larger investors who really started blowing significant amounts, so to seven hundred and eighty nine digit amounts or beyond in Crypto. That's really what we build the product for and what we target our services and the entire let's say take customer service operations for to really tailor our our products through to that customer group. And the new brokers for example, who then it's a enrich they're offering with crypto in their trading engine or whatsoever. They could rather be a partner to work with, where we in the back end surf as the it's a be to be partner, to to save guard the assets and to enable further use cases, while they actually, let's say retail business, sticks with a new progress. If you wouldn't have said the last sentences, I would have asked if there's a one of the new broker clients. You could talk about that. As I said earlier, we have...

...very few customers that we talked about, and then there's a lot which we don't okay, this just a few small questions to wrap it all up. Basically, when you applied for the license, there was a legal framework for it and the German oversight body of financial services. What do you have? The FTC in the US. The SEC is in Germany, Baffin, and basically, when you went there and applied for crypto license, they did not say, Oh, what's that, but they knew what to expect. Did you feel this like in working with the regulatory bodies? That's a new business and they do not want to completely stamp it out but encourage it. Yes, I think in general we can. We can say that the the the relationship with a regulator in Germany around crypto is is very positive. I mean, what you could see obviously as well, is that over the last is, I mean the the crypto assets custody license in Germany was introduced in the German Banking Act by the beginning of two thousand and twenty, so it's a it's around two years old now. And what you could see as well over the time that obviously the regulator understood much better how how crypto and the ecosystem operates, how it works, what the different business model looks look like, what the value chain look like, what different let's a tech and and product place look like, and you could see that also, time over time, in the conversations that that there was this let's say, learning curve between the industry and then the regulator and in general, I think we can be very happy in Germany that that the bath and took this early approach to, yeah, at the end, regulate Crypto, because that opened a lot of conversations with with investors, for example, who are who need or who are forced to work with regulated counterparties. So for us that really was very important and an opened a lot of doors that may have been closed before. And, yeah, that being said, we I mean it's always the same, right, that also within industry that is so fast evolving, and I like to say that, you know, Finndeck is fast, but crypto is warp speeds. Right, it's really even working in the industry. It's it's to keep up with the market, which is three and sixty five days, twenty for hours. Right, there is the market is always open and to keep up with it, with the innovation that is happening already takes takes quite an effort. And then just put yourself also into the shoes over regulator, right, which has to kind of WHO's trying to put some guidelines, some sandboxes around, around certain business cases, but then those business cases are already evolving further and further. So what we really see it also as our as our to do here, and I think I speak for the entire industry, is to really keep the conversation going, to to to to exchange what we see is happening, and up to today, I can really say that both the regulator as well as the lawmakers or, for example, the German Financial Ministry, they really show the interest to understand, to help and and at the end, also create this new labor market. At the end, you know, because him Berlin we have a very strong crypto scene by now, with a lot of larger players as well, which, at the end, yeah, create jobs, create taxes, and I think that's really something we should focus on, that this continues in a healthy relationship. Also, it provides a unique calum pool that would pull in additional companies as well. I'm talking about German Free Cusco mentality. To be need full instrut mentality. You provide insurance...

...for the digital assets? Well, it's a yes or no in what is not the case is that crypto assets do not classify under, for example, as a German cash account, where you have this these for private individuals, where you have this one hundred thousand euro guarantee basically from from from the the Banking Association and the State at the end that protects the assets that that are in the bank accounts. But we don't have that same, let's say, logic for crypto assets. They're just treated in a different way. But obviously we as an industry, we work on, yeah, our own setup or private insurance models as well. But that being said, what you can see is that I mean insurance and generally works with statistics and history right, and Crypto is such a new market that we just don't see, let's say, in much sure insurance market just yet. Why we see a lot of let's say new products and services from insurance coming into the market, it's still quite a way for them to fully, let's say, cover the market, cover all the different use cases, because custody is one thing, but then you have staking and you have decentralized lending and and all those come with their own risks that both the users and also the S is provide us as ourselves undergo. And then, obviously, where insurance is is demanded for, and there we definitely still see a bit of a, let's say, creation face and then sort of an infant state of the use cases that we see in the market and the insurance policies that are available from from the insurance providers. But again, that's also one of our big to douse that that we work with the insurance market to to provide the service coverage according and now the question, basically when you've already set so there's services you do not provide but you will provide in the future. I was I would be a little bit curious when I talk to Tangany, a company that offers a crypto software, how is asking how high is your level of Parnoia there? And I got the completely expected answers on the highest possible level. I assume you're the same. Do you have any additional like safeguards in place, like internal controls? Other people would have not. For example, you talked about like seven trading like in forks. I know if you, for ex traders. They have alarm set and basically, when you're you asked a lacrosse rates drop under certain amount, even to a m Sunday morning, they got woken up you as well. Well, I think paranoia is a very nice concept. I think WHO's not in paranoia works in Crypto? I think then something's wrong. I mean, obviously we the end. What we do is we provide security, right, security on our on the assets that are that are stored and managed with our with our platform, and that in in in return, means that customers are trusting. So whatever we do, we have to re reconfirm the customer in the trust that he that he puts into our intour products, in our services, into our company, and that we can only create by being paranoia on our side. Right. So, obviously we have seven the team on the ground, that is that is observing our platform, that is observing the market as well. That's that's just how how it is in Crypto. It's a market that just never stops. And, as I said, we also have customers from across the globe. So it's not that it's German business hours,...

...nine hundred and two four and then the market closest. That is just not existent for us. I have at so yeah, it's a very different business model as in traditional finance. Back to this, the the security concept. So it's in absolutely crucial in crypto because it's a decentralized market. So any transaction that is not intended by our customers, is is needs to be prohibited. So we take a lot of year about authenticating the customer actions, authenticating the usage of our platform, and that's what our entire business as at the end, build around. And that's not only the technology but also the processes, the organization that we build, the people that we hire that we need to trust in. And Yeah, that's that's I think paranoia really puts it very nicely. I see a slight level of paranoia is always pretty good working in Krypto. And actually, I don't want to bother you any more. That would be like a Sillian. Additional things I would like to ask you, but I do assume that will come around when we do an interview. If they when there's a series B are you actually in the process of fund raising one? Well, it's it's let's it's a good question. Always Right, I get I get that so many times, but I mean in general. We have built a healthy business. We have raised a very healthy series a last year, as we talked earlier about. We have also started generating very healthy revenues since a year and a half or so, and with that we are not, let's say, actively looking at the at the moment. But then, as it is the the environment might change and you know also when you find the right partner to work with, and that is really convincing in our for the growth story and internationalized station, then and we will see. But it's a no concrete plan says of today. So that means if an investor heres this, it's time to reach out now. That's what you said. That's what I said, Henry. We now recording for almost forty five minutes. We will now this down a little bit in order to make it digestible on an average commute for our listeners. I would like to thank you very much. Hope to have you back when you raise the serious be sometime in the future or when you get a different license or something, I'm sure there will be trigger for another interview. Until then, I wish you best of luck. It was pleasure having you here. Jure. It's been a very nice conversation. Thanks for the invitation and talk soon over sure. Thanks, man, Byye bye. That's all. Folks find more news streams, events and interviews at www dot's start of red that Hio remember, share is Carey. Thank you for staying with us to the end. We would like to thank the sponsor of this episode of winner vest and. They enable you, with a global network, master somble ease and quantitative models, to find and invest in the best wine. You can decide what you do with every single bottle, which also includes getting them delivered home to enjoy it with friends and family. To learn more, just click the link in the description below.

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